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‘Really dumb and lazy if we do not benefit’: Timor-Leste president on hopes of joining ASEAN in 2025
Asia’s youngest country has been waiting to be a member of ASEAN since 2011. The benefits of membership won’t be one-sided, Timor-Leste President José Ramos-Horta tells CNA in an exclusive interview.

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DILI: Pictures of Southeast Asian leaders such as Brunei’s Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah, Indonesia’s President Prabowo Subianto and Singapore’s Prime Minister Lawrence Wong adorn a newly inaugurated hall in Timor-Leste’s presidential palace in the capital Dili.
Also occupying a spot in the red-carpeted hall are the national flags of the 10 members of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).
Inaugurated last month, the ASEAN Hall signals Timor-Leste’s commitment to regional diplomacy as it aims to become the bloc’s newest member.
“It seems it (the hall) is the only one in the world, in ASEAN (countries), where there is a dedicated space like (this) in a ministry, in a royal palace or presidential palace,” said Timor-Leste’s President José Ramos-Horta.
“At least in ASEAN countries I have visited, I have never noticed something like the ASEAN Hall,” he said in an exclusive interview with CNA a day after inaugurating the space.

In a wide-ranging conversation, the 75-year-old leader and winner of the 1996 Nobel Peace Prize expressed hopes of joining the regional grouping this year during Malaysia’s chairmanship and shared how he expects incoming United States president Donald Trump to reset relations with China, reiterating that Beijing is not a threat.
WILL 2025 BE THE YEAR?
Timor-Leste, which gained independence in 2002, formally applied to join ASEAN in 2011 during Ramos-Horta’s first presidency from 2007 to 2012.
The journey has been a “steady one” although “not without difficulties”, he said, pointing to the country’s “lack of human resources” and infrastructure.
It was only in November 2022 during the chairmanship of Cambodia – and months after Ramos-Horta began his second term as president in May 2022 – that the 10 ASEAN countries agreed in principle for Timor-Leste to join and granted it observer status.
In May 2023, during a summit in Labuan Bajo, Indonesia, ASEAN adopted a roadmap for Timor-Leste’s full membership to support the nation in fulfilling the criteria for becoming a member.
Timor-Leste will participate as an observer in the ASEAN Foreign Ministers’ Retreat in Langkawi this weekend (Jan 18 and 19).

To become an ASEAN member, a country must meet key milestones of the three political security, economic and socio-cultural pillars.
Ramos-Horta observed that “no country, even those who are already members of ASEAN, has fully implemented all the treaties associated with ASEAN”.
“So not every country has been able to do that. We have done it already – more than 70 per cent. Many ASEAN countries are saying there is no need or not fair to expect Timor-Leste to implement all the treaties. It's just enough that we have done plenty,” he said.
Timor-Leste – which occupies half the island of Timor, with Indonesia occupying the other half – had hoped to become a member in 2023 under the chairmanship of Indonesia.
It would have been a symbolic development as the country of 1.4 million people gained independence from the archipelago after a period of upheaval and struggle. But it was not to be.
“NOT FAIR” TO HOLD BACK TIMOR-LESTE
On Timor-Leste now setting its sights on becoming an ASEAN member in 2025, Mr Ramos-Horta said: “We have made tremendous progress (since 2023).
“At the same time, I think ASEAN leaders, most of them, all of them, realise that it is enough, what Timor-Leste has done to merit immediate membership. That it is not realistic, (or) even fair, to expect Timor-Leste to join ASEAN only when it has reached the level of Malaysia, Singapore or Thailand.”
According to him, some ASEAN leaders have told him not every ASEAN country can claim accurately that it has implemented all milestones.
Ramos-Horta cited Myanmar, which has been undergoing political, economic and social turmoil since its military seized power from the elected government of Nobel laureate Aung San Suu Kyi almost four years ago.
Ramos-Horta revealed that even former Cambodia Prime Minister Hun Sen told him that Timor-Leste has more money and is better prepared than Cambodia when the latter joined ASEAN in 1999.
“Cambodia today is (one of) the fastest growing economies of ASEAN,” he said.
“(It is) not fair to hold back Timor-Leste,” continued Ramos-Horta. “We have shown enough commitment, enough progress to merit joining. So that's why we are talking about 2025 under the chairmanship of Malaysia.”

Timor-Leste has a semi-presidential political system where the president is elected by a popular vote for a five-year term and appoints the prime minister, who is head of government.
Joining the bloc means the Republic, one of Asia’s poorest countries, will become further plugged into a region of over 660 million people with a joint annual gross domestic product (GDP) of nearly US$4 trillion.
To Ramos-Horta, joining ASEAN is a no-brainer, in spite of observers and regional leaders calling for ASEAN to speed up integration in new growth areas like the digital and green economies.
“When … a country has as neighbours wealthy countries, we would have to be really dumb and lazy if we do not benefit because there is potential for taking advantage of it, there is potential for spillover benefits.”
He is grateful to have Australia and Indonesia as its closest neighbours, as well as Singapore and Malaysia, which are relatively near.
“They're all relatively prosperous. So joining ASEAN with all the rules governing relations, trade and so on, Timor will benefit and will force us, our youth, to study more, force our government to invest more in education, in quality education so that our people can survive and prevail in this community of 700 million people.”
TIMOR-LESTE AND INDONESIA
Timor-Leste was a Portuguese colony for over 400 years.
It first became independent in 1975, and Ramos-Horta was appointed its external affairs minister at the age of 25.
Nine days after Timor-Leste’s independence, Indonesia, whose East Nusa Tenggara province makes up the western half of Timor island, invaded.
An inquiry estimated that 102,800 people died between 1974 and 1999 during the conflict. It was only when BJ Habibie became Indonesian president that a referendum for Timor-Leste’s self-determination was held in August 1999. The majority of Timorese voted for independence.
Current Indonesian President Prabowo Subianto was with the Indonesian army during the occupation and was deployed several times to Timor-Leste.
But the dark history between the two neighbours has not hindered efforts to move on from the past and work on a better future, said Ramos-Horta, who wore a blue batik shirt bought from Jakarta for the interview with CNA.
“Indonesia already has a big presence in Timor-Leste and more will happen in the next couple of years,” he said.
Ramos-Horta has officially invited Prabowo to visit Timor-Leste.
“We want to work with him to further expand the relationship in trade, investment, security areas and whatever we can do, a lot of partnerships, particularly with our closest neighbour in Indonesia, NTT, Nusa Tenggara Timur (East Nusa Tenggara).”
Although Prabowo played a role during the Indonesian occupation, Ramos-Horta said he does not seek an apology.
“Sometimes the best form of apology (is) not the word(s): ‘We apologise’,” he said.
“The best form of apology is seeking friendship and reconciliation. Provide every support the other side needs to help to heal the wounds and so on. And that's what Indonesia has been doing for the past 20-plus years.”
Ramos-Horta’s esteem of ASEAN countries such as Singapore was palpable during the interview.
“I have a great admiration for Singapore. Timor-Leste has only to gain to embrace Singapore. Singapore is trying to embrace Timor-Leste,” he said.
In fact, Timor-Leste has a variety of banana called Banana Singapura or “hudi Singapura” in its national language Tetum.
Ramos-Horta said he is trying to convince people to invest in a Banana Singapura plantation in his country for export to the city-state.
“I said: ‘Listen, I personally guarantee I will do the marketing, I'll do the promotion’,” he recounted.
On ASEAN’s part, its members would benefit from having a stable new member which upholds religious tolerance and peace, and offers new trade, investment and tourism opportunities, he said.
“The best contribution we can offer ASEAN is precisely that Timor-Leste is not a nuisance. Timor-Leste is not unstable, not a failed country.
“We are not a problem,” he underlined.

Observers have noted Timor-Leste’s geopolitical significance amid US-China rivalry and some have said it is in ASEAN’s interest to admit Timor-Leste.
Following Ramos-Horta’s visit to Beijing last July, the first by a Timor-Leste president, an analysis by Singapore’s S Rajaratnam School of International Studies (RSIS) noted that while economic and political needs drive Timor-Leste’s increasing engagement with China, the recent enhancement of their political and economic ties also aims to balance Timor-Leste’s relationships with Australia, Indonesia and the US.
That said, Timor-Leste has consistently held a balanced and neutral foreign policy stance, wrote RSIS China programme visiting associate Jackson Huang and Fidelis Leite Magalhães of the Timor-Leste think tank Alternative Futures–Institute of Politics and International Affairs.
ON CHINA AND THE US
Across the ASEAN Hall at the entrance of the Nicolau Lobato presidential palace is the Noble People’s Republic of China Hall with a pair of tall Chinese porcelain vases on its left side.
Timor-Leste has a special relationship with the world’s second-biggest economy. China was one of the first countries to recognise its independence and establish diplomatic relations with it.
The presidential palace was even built with funding from China, like other infrastructural projects in the country.

Ramos-Horta is not afraid that Timor-Leste will fall into a debt trap or struggle to pay its loans like some countries have.
“We don't have any loans from China, and we don't have any loans from Western banks. In total, our total debt is only 13 per cent of our gross domestic product (GDP), the lowest in the world. Second, our loans are only with the Asian Development Bank, with World Bank, International Finance Corporation, and (are) very small,” he said.
According to the International Monetary Fund, Timor-Leste’s 2024 public external debt is about US$267 million, about 13.7 per cent of its non-oil GDP.
He also believes that China is “not a threat to anyone”.
“I can tell you countries in ASEAN, they don't feel that they are threatened by China,” he said.
“There are tensions, and differences in relation to the South China Sea, but when you have differences, you negotiate. We engage in dialogue, in bilateral dialogue.”

Timor-Leste’s economy hugely depends on its oil and gas reserves, which account for about 70 per cent of its GDP and more than 80 per cent of the state’s annual revenue. But the reserves are dwindling.
For years, the country has tried to develop a new oil field, the Greater Sunrise, which lies about 140km south of Timor-Leste and 400km northwest of Darwin.
Talks with Australia on how to develop it for the benefit of both countries have yet to conclude.
“More revenue will come when we sign the agreement with Australia, the joint venture to bring the pipeline to Timor-Leste,” said Ramos-Horta.
“We'll have spillover benefits to our neighbours because we will have high economic growth.”
Asked if the country is in talks with Chinese firm Sinopec on potentially helping to develop the Greater Sunrise, which he has reportedly said, Ramos-Horta said many Chinese companies are interested in investing in Timor-Leste and he does not think Australia will lose sleep over it.
“Generally, Chinese presence in Timor-Leste has been enormously beneficial to our economy,” he said.
“I'm very happy with the Chinese presence. Should we have more? Well, I would like to see Indian merchants coming, Bangladeshis and Lebanese or Australians and so on.”

TRUMP A “FASCINATING CHARACTER”
With the US set to inaugurate Donald Trump as president for a second time, Ramos-Horta hopes for a reset of US-China relations and the superpower's continued engagement with ASEAN.
“I just hope that he'd first reset relations with China. Engage ASEAN seriously as a strategic partner,” he said.
He hopes Timor-Leste’s relationship with the world’s biggest economy will also remain well during Trump’s second term.
“The US is not evil as some claim. (It) is not black and white. It's not all good, all bad,” he said.
Although Ramos-Horta has been in politics for decades – he is also Timor-Leste’s first foreign minister and second prime minister – he has yet to meet Trump.
“I’ve never met him and it is not my ambition in life to meet him, but (he is) a fascinating character.”
He wants Trump to end the wars in Ukraine and Gaza, saying he would nominate the incoming US president for the Nobel Peace Prize if it happens.

Ramos-Horta said he messaged Trump a few days before the interview with CNA and had asked him to reset relations with China.
“He said: ‘I'm a friend of Xi Jinping. With China, the United States will help resolve many of the world's problems. That is what President Trump says. I very much welcome that,” he said.
But like many observers, Ramos-Horta does not see an end to US-China competition.
“China invested in science and technology for a long time,” Ramos-Horta said, adding that China will continue to be “aggressively competitive”.
“So, that is a competition, and that doesn't necessarily mean you have to go to war or impose sanctions here and there.”